| Bad medicine for marriage |
| Written by Jack Haberer, Outlook editor | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Monday, 28 November 2011 02:36 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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The Covenant Network (CN) long has pursued the daunting agenda both “to work for the removal of ordination barriers to the full participation of LGBT [lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgendered] Presbyterians, and to support the mission and unity of the denomination.”
Your Responses (15)
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p.w. gregory
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lambertville, nj Much has been written on the intended and unintended consequences of PUP. I am sure those on the 2005-06 process were people of faith, honor, and sincerity in their service to the church. And did the best they could with the material they had. The problem was as soon as the path of least resistence was determined in the AI, a paradigm shift happned. Where issues, matters, conflicts could be mediated, processed through the representative process of the church, a trap door was used to sort of slide the whole gay/lesbian process forward/progressed to a point where it would not have been, without PUP. Whether that was intended or not, those where the results. Trust was damaged, evangelicals saw this as the classic bait and switch. In essence a form of congregationalism was introduced into a system/process that had yet to work-out the essential matters of property/power/process for those affected by AI. So six years later the conversation has shifted from gay ordination to marriage/church rites/the entire meaning of marriage both religious and civil. Will the AI trap-door be used again? Regardless, the PCUSA does not get to define marriage or what its meaning is, as it is not the church universal, nor has it an exclusive claim to the Body of Christ. To say otherwise is idolatry. The Polity of the church is indeed messy at times, at times painful, at times hard to manage, at times drives people crazy, but it is what it is. Either work it, or call yourself something else, like the UCC, Unitarian, Quakers, take your pick. |
Rev. Robert McClelland
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Arlington, Texas Dear Mr. Haberer, Thank you for this article. I was a commissioner to the 2006 General Assembly and asked many questions of the PUP team on the floor of GA. I too think that this is a misuse of an AI. If we are going to redefine marriage as between two people, we need to allow the assembly and the presbyteries to prayerfully discern and decide. |
p.w. gregory
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lambertville, nj Back in my active duty military days and the whole 'Don't-Ask-Don't Tell' ins and outs, the real discussion was not so much the intergration of open gays/lesbians into the Force, for we had DOD/Rand/Belt-Way Think Tanks studies that said the impact would be minimal at best to the Force. But rubber will meet the road on the whole issue of gay marrriage/civil unions on military property, govt. benefits/housing/alike, given that Federal Law in Defense of Marriage Act bars govt. benefits at this time. But again, if you are for a penny, in for a pound, and those issues will get worked out in time, that being said-------- Whatever your personal views happen to be on gays/gay marriage/whatever, the Bible in plain and clear language does say certain things on the matter. If the church or any denominaiton walks away from marriage and family as something other than between a man and women, then you richly deserve your fates. But we have been down this road before, and not too long ago. When the PUCSA allowed the PUP process via administrative Fiat, in an attemt to back-door the church and ram the issue home apart from any constitutional process, again whatever pain and heart-ache the church is in now is richly deserved. There are many emotions and feelings that can be applied to the church, sympathy should not be one. And the real posion pill if there is one. Is not this issue, but the whole Property Clause out of the "83 reunion. Get rid of that, then yes the church would be free to work these very complex and emotional social issues out in a more healthy and less tense atmosphere. But that is not to be. |
PJohnston
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Canada It strikes me as a bit disingenuous to say sexually active homosexuals can be ordained in the church but can not be married in the church. Having determined homosexual practices are in and of themselves perfectly moral and no barrier to leadership in the church, there is no reason to then say those practices are sufficiently beyond the pale to prohibit their solemnization in church worship services. It's not a new AI that would "make ambiguous what is clear." The ambiguity came with the "adoption of Amendment 10-A, which lifted the denomination-wide, categorical ordination standard of living a life of 'fidelity in marriage between a man and a woman or chastity in singleness'…" If "between a man and a woman" matters in one part of your constitution, it should matter in all of your constitution. If it's option in one part, it should be optional in all. Of course, I spent a lot of years working to defend the historic ordination standard that was just removed, so maybe this is just discouragement speaking… |
Whit Brisky
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Chicago, Illinois I think Neal Lloyd has it backwards. It is government that should get out of the marriage business, and leave it to each Church to marry, and divorce, whom it will. Certainly a given State's determination to allow same-sex "marriage" cannot affect the truth of God's Word to us in Scripture. |
Neal Lloyd
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Cambria, Wisconsin There is another approach worthy of serious consideration, namely getting the church out of the marriage business altogether. There is a reason why the FOG segmented out material regarding our relationship with civil authority. Our heritage is respectful of but also suspect of being tied too closely to the powers of this earth. Let's talk about disentangling ourselves from the role of being agents of the state in the matter of marriage. At least our conversation would be about what it means to pronounce (or not pronounce) God's manifold blessings. |
Robert W Lowry
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Little Rock, AR I agree that this is the wrong approach. If we are to remedy our denomination's continuing policies of liturgical and pastoral discrimination it must be done at the constitutional level. I do not agree that the confessions need to be changed. They stand as a whole to reflect the theological unfolding of the church's understanding and as reminders of our heritage. The Book of Order is an expression of how we, as a church will live into our theological convictions. Before I am corrected, yes, I realize that the confessions are part of our constitution as well. They serve a different purpose from the daily ordering of the church's ministry. The time will come when the church can no longer bear the weight of this sin and change will come. That time is not yet here. The church needs a season of healing and focus so that our unity in faith in Jesus Christ may be restored and strengthened before it is tested again as it is in every generation. |
Will McGarvey
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Pittsburg, CA Connected to ordination barriers to the full membership and ministry of our LGBTQ siblings in Christ is whether we will celebrate the covenants of all members. Contrary to what Gagnon or brother Bierschwale contest, the biblical norm for marriage is polygyny (multiple wives, concubines, and slaves). I don't see many folks in the PC (USA) calling us back to that biblical norm, but instead hold up a European form of serial monogamy still based in patriarchal cultural norms. Some Arab and African Christians still practiced polygyny upon contact with Imperial European Christians, and some still practice it in secret. There are multiple problems with 4-4.9000. First, it speaks out of both sides of its mouth, saying that marriage is a gift of God to all humanity as well as describing marriage as a civil contract between a man and a woman. Perhaps our problem goes back to a GAPJC which also spoke out of both sides of its mouth - making a hetero description a prescriptive phrase, as well as saying that there is no such thing as same-gender marriage even though six states and the District of Columbia would say different. While Haberer seems more interested in the approach one uses to encourage the church to make a way for churches to bless the covenants of all of its members. Of course the biblical narrative doesn't talk about marriage for same-gender loving couples. As C 67 points out, we interpret the Bible in its historical and cultural context. Imposing that context on the present does serious harm to the Christian couples in our churches that can have their marriages blessed by the state, but not solemnized and blessed by their church families. This puts pastors in the unenviable position of being asked to offer the pastoral care of premarital counseling and adding a spiritual covenant to some of the parishioners, but never to all those who seek to help their marriages conform to the gospel message. There is a reason that marriage is not a sacrament in our tradition. Making the barriers to marriage equality in the church greater than that of Baptism and the Lord's Supper makes a mockery of our sharing of the Gospel. |
Eric Laverentz
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Overland Park, KS This legislative strategy reminds me of a quote from the erstwhile Reverend Lovejoy on "The Simpsons" whitewashing legalized gambling "Once the government approves something, it is no longer immoral." |
David Bierschwale
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Burley, Idaho Though I agree completely with your analysis of the issue through the lense of polity, I wish you had gone a step further and made the clear Biblical case against same-gender marriage. Robert Gagnon has splendidly argued the case against it in his many writings. We do well to follow the pattern laid out by the Lord in Genesis 2:24, and reaffirmed by our Lord Jesus Christ in Matthew 19:4-5. Let us stand strong as counter-cultural disciples of Jesus Christ. Let us be about "speaking the truth in love" (Ephesians 4:15, ESV)--"Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect." (Romans 12:2, ESV). |
Jim Morgan
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... Authoritative Interpretation is similar to the way our government passed Obamacare. The process/procedure used to pass that was called “reconciliation.” Reconciliation is the name of the process used to leave PCUSA. Cornelius, NC |
John Shuck
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Elizabethton, Tennessee Dear Mr. Haberer, I think it would be "honorable" to fight for equality rather than scold those in the fight from the sidelines. That would be "honorable". I wrote a more complete response on my blog. |
Viola Larson
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Sacramento, Ca Jack, Thank you for writing this. Your stand and words are exactly what is needed. An end-run around proper voting by presbyteries is not a kindness. Now if you would just address the Covenant Networks new guidelines for voting on Candidates: ) |
Karl Landstrom
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Arlington, Virginia Jack Haberer has clearly and convincingly set out reasons in which I concur why the attempt to change the church's marriage practice by unconstitutional means is the wrong prescription. |
Jake Horner
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Pittsburgh, PA Jack, The proposed AI is disingenuous for another reason as well. If the GA passes it, our polity would recognize the existence of ‘same-gender marriage.’ According to a PJC case against Rev. Janet Edwards heard in Pittsburgh a few years ago, if I recall correctly, Rev. Edwards was found not-guilty of any violation because such a thing as ‘same-gender marriage’ does not exist in our polity. This AI would introduce that language into our polity and make permissible ‘marrying’ same-gender couples in states that allow for a civil “marriage.” |














