While I have no illusion that the change in the Book of Order that Tom Trinidad opposes will have any real effect (I have given up hope of much of anything good coming from revision to the Book of Order by now), I would make a slight correction to his remarks. The term "means of grace" does not find its origin in the Book of Order in the section on Discipline. It comes from old Reformed usage and appears in several places in our Book of Confessions (a book that bears the name of the Constitution of the Presbyterian Church (USA) on its cover, but effectively has been dislodged as such by both the GAPJC and the GA itself in recent times). Usually it occurs in the context of "the outward and ordinary means" by which Christ communicates the benefits of his redemption, or along those kind of lines. The full phrase "means of grace" does appear in the Larger Catechism. It is also not limited to just Word and Sacrament, but also includes prayer. In other Reformed theological discussions, it has often been extended to cover more than just those items. Their "diligent use" (this additional phrase) is also one found in classical Reformed theology, and does not have its origin in the chapter on Discipline.

Walter L. Taylor

The best indication of future behavior is past behavior. I see no indication in the history of the behavior of the BOP in regard to matters of corporate communications, business process, or thought or logic process that gives one hope for any change in how they will manage this issue.  Is it a hard time time to be in the BOP management? Sure it is, no harder than any ministry setting. But there is basic right and wrong, good and bad, justice or lack of it,  fairness, equity and none of the above.  Money issues are hard, no denying that. Those other matters should be so clear a child could see them. Common sense or bureaucratic corporate double speak.  We will see what the end result will be.

Peter Gregory

I find it curious to say the least that  that in the post-gay ordination age we seemed to have come full circle. In our efforts to totally remove any specific reference to personal behavior in matters of ordination we now sort of cross our fingers and sort of assume that the person in question, fesses up, if not the collective body, then to God about they may, could, possibly consider a sin in a subjective means, and in a vague way sort of uses the gifts of grace to sort it all out.  And then we move the process along. All shake hands and then off to the coffee hour.

    This non-disrcipt,  and convoluted wording would not have worked in 1728, not in 1865, not in 1983, does not work now.   A body, a denomination that cannot define, let alone explain sin to itself,  let alone others is not one worthy or respect or obedience and not long for this world.

Peter Gregory

Immerse it in all the perfumes of Arabia. Pound it till all coarse hairs are gone and it's pliable and soft.  But the sow's ear of schism remains, even under the excuse/euphemism of "Mission."  Virtually everywhere Presbyterians/Reformed have gone, a puzzled public, including unbelievers, has witnessed those who, believing they've lost their cherished, worldly, presbyterial clout, arrogantly break off and seek a totally illusive, "pure" church!  How much better, the example of Martin Luther who remained Roman Catholic despite all of that denomination's 16th-century abuses, until excommunicated!

Blatant charges to the contrary notwithstanding, the PCUSA continues, as ever, to seek to know Christ, make him known universally (e.g., through innovative 1,001 new worshiping communities), serve God's favorites the poor and dispossessed, and challenge in Christ's name unjust, evil social structures. Will self-exiled ECO transform its easy slogans into real witness and actions?  Speak truth to power, as does, bravely, the PCUSA G.A.--including challenging the current national idolatry nurtured by our greedy firearms industry, whose tactics threaten the very lives of first-graders?  Will ECO champion the brutalized Palestinians against their current Israeli oppressors, or are the tactics of Netanyahu & Co. part of "God's plan for the 'Chosen People?'"  Will ECO defend hard-working, practically enslaved Latino workers on U.S. vegetable farms?  Or will this new movement/denomination amount virtually, as I suspect, to the Tea Party at prayer?  That certainly remains to be seen!

In the meantime the agonizing splits go on.  Congregations founded in strategic locations during the post- World War II "Boomer" years, with edifices into which faithful presbyteries and members prayerfully poured their energies and resources, are now rudely divided by "born-again" (typically by spiritual C-section!) shepherds who've been quickly approved by trusting COMs.  And now these pulpiteers point their sheep to the distortions of the media, including that ecclesiastical tabloid THE LAYMAN, as they attempt to capture and lead their flocks into the wilderness.  Long-time friendships and even the families of faithful communicants are severed.

The northern part of my native Mississippi, during the 1960s & 70s, managed to retain most of its former PCUS congregations--despite the amazing tactics of those who eventually took most churches in the rest of Mississippi and Alabama into what became the PCA.  The influence of Presbyterians in the university towns Oxford and Starkville, along with those in the Delta literary center Greenville and the forward-thinking, TVA community Tupelo, effectively stood up to those many who poured into the state from outside--often graduates of Gresham Machen's Westminster Seminary, Philadelphia.  But recently I visited an older lady in one town in St. Andrew Presbytery with a Presbyterian church that the schemers did manage to capture. From antebellum years her family had been elders in the historic congregation.  She poured out her love both for this former flock of her family and for the PCUSA.  "You know," I said, "schism is always just as bad as heresy."  -- "It's worse!," she cried.  And burst into tears.     

Dwyn Mounger

At first blush my reaction was the same offer should have been made to clergy covered by the Board of Pensions, then I remembered OGA employees have their own deal, nice work if you can find it. And the Board of Pensions busies itself with more pressing matters.   Speaking of work.  Whenever a company or organization calls in the "outside" consultants, to set the ship aright, and uses code language, "new vision",  and it was never about money, A. they lacked vision, and B. It is always about money.   Man the life boats and polish up those CVs.  The end is in sight.  The real issue is not why some churches continue to pay per capita for such services, but why most still do.

p.w gregory

Excellent counsel. What has helped me keep sane and emotionally healthy over the years is the practice of meeting with a spiritual advisor/mentor who has nothing to to do with the parish or community I serve. Clergy by and large, live professional lives of social and professional isolation and disconnect from others. We are drawn to the profession to be in the "people" business, but some at times have issues with  that balance and keeping personal and professional integrity.  Further some seek to have their various interpersonal needs met by parishioners, or the job or profession,  which they should have had addressed by other means.

  In my practice/ministry what is tripping people up today in marriages and relationships is not so much physical misconduct or inappropriate physical contact but the "artificial" relationships, emotional, and remote, but  very intimate relationships in cyberspace, Facebook, Link in, and other social platforms  that foster such.  Our technology always is faster than our psycho-emotional makeup as people are able to adjust. But  the end is always the same, paid, sadness and heartache. 

p.w. gregory

In the Psalms we read again and again, "my God my God why hast thou forsaken me", and in Hosea, "where is thy Justice O God".   The justice of God was, is, and forever more shall be the person, teachings, and work of Jesus Christ, Lord and Savior, who worked out the 'justice' of God in his atonement.

  In Iraq religious, as well as personal or tribal disputes were settled many times with a severed head on the end of pole as a warning and intimidation to others. The guns per capita relative to the population, even with many armed body guards had little correlation as to whose head was on the end of the pole at the end of the day. As I doubt parishioners, choir directors, clergy packing heat will lead to ones over all sense of security or safety, nor will it ever buy peace of mind or heart.  Insecurity, fear, intimidation exists in heart, the soul, guns and  ammo will not solve that issue.  Armed security guard in schools will not add one measure of security and safety to the public or private system. Ask any kid in Chicago gunned down outside of school on the way home.   People of faith are called to be people of faith in a very fallen and evil world.  The world is what it is, so are we.  The Lord God sees all and will hold all accountable, the evil and the good. I can live with that justice.

p.w. gregory

Their are many aspects of the Episcopalian denomination's behavior in these cases that defy rational explanation: (1) the denomination engages in expensive litigation to seize the property even when it has zero chance of sustaining an ongoing Episcopalian congregation in the building; (2) it refuses to even talk with a congregation which is willing to pay full market value for the building the congregation built and paid for in the first place; (3) they are burdening their loyalist members with the enormous expense of the denomination's vindictiveness, disclosing to their members last year that the denomination has spent $18 million thus far in property litigation expense.  In one case in New York City, the denomination sold the building to a Muslim group for a lower price than the departing congregation offered.  Presbyterians can rightfully thank God that they are not embarrassing themselves and the cause of Christ the way Episcopalians are embarrassing themselves.  And thank God the Episcopalians' behavior marks the end of the connectional polity that results in these outcomes.   

Jim Caraher

Article X of the Bill of Rights states clearly that those specific laws not Constitutionally provided for the federal govt. remain the purview and oversight of the individual states. As marriage never has been regulated or managed on a national or federal level, the original 1996 law is on very shaky ground to start with and congress and the Clinton administration should have recognized this. I would personally hope that the law is indeed deemed unconstitutional in that it would return to the states the power and authority to manage and regulate marriage as their historic role has been, and would be keeping with individual rights and autonomy in this matter. But that street runs both ways, neither should the secular state mandate or define for the church the nature of marriage and just whom the definition of such applies. An individual church or clergy is free to accept, or not, the definition and policy of the secular state as normative. Such becomes an internal denominational matter to address and again, one is free to react and respond to such as they will.

  Before one gets all happy about that, the constitution has some other things to say concerning church and state.  It speaks specifically to freedom of religion and freedom of association. In regards property and church assets.  For the PCUSA or EPC to argue that the secular state has a vested interest in retaining such assets within the former denomination as a matter of laws of incorporation or historical precedence, is again a bogus argument to make in a conflictual situation.

Relationships and associations cannot be mandated either by ecclesiastical or secular law.  There is no "state church" as in the UK or Sweden, nor does the church have to follow any such policy or directives which impinge upon individual freedom or religion or association.

p.w. gregory

Is this really some sort of "Reformed vs. Celtic" issue (the latter being and empty vessel that one can fill with all kinds of things...), or is it something more significant. It looks to me more like a conflict between a Theology of the Word and a Theology of Blood and Soil. Whenever I hear of people looking to their ethnic identity as a source of revelation, I know that the Gospel is about to be eclipsed.

Walter L. Taylor

Thank you, Jill Duffield for that poignant reminder of what we are called to be... Christ's disciples in a hurting world.  You reminded me of some of the most poignant "sacramental" moments around the Lord's table while I was in the Air Force -- down-range, in the hospital, in austere training locations with sleep deprived service members.  And you also reminded me of times when the Sacrament was literally offered to home-bound members mere days before they departed this earthly realm.  Yes, sometimes, we need to lay aside our politics and long-winded rhetoric to simply listen and be... and in that sacred moment, see Christ present in the breaking of the bread.  Thank you for that reminder.

Michael Moore

Mr. Mounger's lament about schism and "sad splintering" in the PC(USA) indicates a faulty understanding of Christian unity.  Of course he is right that Jesus prayed that all of his followers would be one.  But what Jesus meant was that he wanted us to be in unity on what the MISSION is: (1) to know Christ; (2) to make him known in all the earth; (3) to serve the poor; (4) to challenge sin and injustice in the systems and structures of society in Jesus' name.  But once we're all in unity on what the mission is, God expects and even desires that we use a wide range of different strategies, messages, theologies, styles of ministry, etc. to accomplish our common mission.  So when a PC(USA) church leaves the PC(USA) for another Presbyterian group, that is not schismatic or a breach of Christian unity.  That church has simply concluded that it can better accomplish the common mission of all the Presbyterian groups somewhere other than the PC(USA).  And while it's several decades too late, it's a blessing for the larger cause of Christ that Presbyterians are finally repositioning themselves within the Reformed family of faith so all Presbyterians can pursue their mission unfettered by haggling with each other.    

Jim Caraher

I would not hold my breath on that letter. The Rosetta stone for understanding anything PCUSA related to foreign policy, politics, or public witness has historically revolved around Cuba (pro) and to a lesser extent marxist liberation groups,  and more recently Israel (anti).   Anything beyond those centers of gravity tend to fade into the background of its obsession with the Jewish state.

  Christians are dying as we speak in Syria,  North Korea, Iraq, Iran. In Palestine they are becoming extinct under the tender mercies of the Islamists who run Fatah faction. Shame.

Peter Gregory

The purpose of the gathering was to pressure the Obama administration to reject the Keystone XL pipeline which would bring oil from the sands of Alberta to the terminal in Cushing OK. A pipeline the Canadian govt will build, if not to the US, then to Vancouver for use in China, and would replace the approx 3 million bbs a year we in-port from Venezuela and our good friend Mr. Chaves. Oil which is high sulfur and is far more damaging in terms of green house gases than the Canadian option.  Also to push back against the development of the Bakin and Marcellus oil/gas ranges that only employ about 300K in the energy complex. But enough with the facts.

   I just wonder just how many solar and wind power cars and buses these folks took to the gathering ?  From a theological perspective the issue remains the old WWJD, drive or bike, volvo or chevy truck, march or send a check to his favorite cause.  Religious progressives never really got over the romanticism  of the 19th century reform movement, William Jennings Bryant and his "cross of gold" speech.  Jesus was not so much a triune God, redeemer, savior, as he was reduced to matters of feeling, sentimentality,  Jesus your best buddy and best lover ever,  who of course is for the various social causes of the moment or era.  As Jefferson could not exacto-cut the Bible and Jesus to his own liking,  so Jesus confronts us with the complexities and contradictions, the hard stuff of faith, and no so easily reduced to bumper-sticker or Jesus is pro-this or that sign.   The only sign that matters is what he will carry about you when we meet the Father as we all will,  Revelations 22.

p.w. gregory

I fully support any attempt to introduce rigor, integrity, and some theological grounding in an issue, ordination, that has been an ideological football for the last decade. And a proxy for folks to work out their culture wars. Though to be honest one's emotional, psychological balance and well being has more to play in the matter of ordination and suitability for ministry,  than any attempt at theological purity one may try to introduce. Since 1728 the Presbyterians have had a long history of at times, ordaining male, heterosexuals who said the right things and had the right connections, graduated top of their class,   but in essence were drunks, idiots, spouse abusers, crooks, and sexual perverts. Have met them all in 32 years. If the collective denominational trauma over the last 40 years has been to extend those same opportunities to females, GLBT folks, then we are indeed free ordain drunks, idiots, crooks, spouse abusers and sexual perverts without regard to gender or orientation. I would call that social justice.

   As regarding denominational unity.  Unity does not flow from administrative or bureaucratic process, nor can it be invented or caused to be by polity alone. Unity flows out of doctrinal, confessional, biblical unity on the essentials of the faith, and the proclamation thereof.  On that matter the PCUSA is lost, broken, and really has nothing more to say other than pay your per capita and what's yours is mine.  Nope. But that is not what will blow the remaining church off its foundations and cause the weak structure to collapse.  That rests with the Board of Pensions, who are currently pondering great matters I am sure.

pw gregory

Thank you, Ron Byars, for accurately describing the fictional conquest of Canaan, and thank you, Outlook for printing it. This description was not and could not have been seen here or in most such publications only a few years ago.

Dennis Maher

I hope, by all means, that most of our presbyteries will endorse the amendment requiring us PC(USA) ordained leaders to acknowledge our need for "repentance of sin and diligent use of the means of grace."  Am advocating this not cynically--that is, because, if we don't adopt the addition, it will amount to glaring proof positive, after the fashion of Torquemada and the Spanish inquisitors, to those who seem to find heresy everywhere, of our alleged heterodoxy.  It's true that those who are trying selfishly to kidnap only for themselves the venerable, continental Protestant term "Evangelisch" don't need one more excuse.  But even with the addition, they will, apparently and sadly, continue, totally ignoring Christ's prayer that we all stay as one (John 17), deliberately to lead their flocks into blatant schism. Despite all the proof to the contrary, they will still charge that we're, somehow, a bunch of closet Unitarians and advocates of sexual promiscuity!
No, I advocate the amendment because it's fully in keeping with biblical and Reformed theology.  Traditionally every Calvinist liturgy has begun, like the vision of Isaiah (chapter 6), with, first, our startling, adoring but frightening awareness of God's holiness, wholly-otherness, and praise-worthiness.  But this leads immediately to our acknowledgement of unworthiness in corporate confession of our sin and need of forgiveness by free grace through Christ, and on to the assurance of pardon that quiets our hearts.  So many of those who now arrogantly steal for themselves the term "evangelical" have proven--some of them for decades--to be a Fifth Column in our beloved denomination, a Trojan Horse, inadequately examined at the time of their admission by too-trusting and perhaps naive presbyters.
And so Presbyterians/Reformed, like the Baptists, continue their sad splintering to produce more and more splinters-- a contagion that seems now even to have affected the Anglicans who, for so long, kept relatively peaceful and together their muddle-through  of high, low, middle, and broad segments.
Dwyn Mounger
Knoxville, TN      

The average Presbyterian assumes that we have a more or less representative form of government. That just like a democratic, federalists system we elect people to higher bodies to more or less represent those who elected them or their internets. Presbyterian polity really is not so much about representative government or even good or bad government, as it an ecclesiastical structure to conduct business. And much like any organized religious enterprise  it is at times ponderous, at times arcane, at times had to fathom. And do not even start down who actually votes at GA and how they got there.

    In essence Presbyterian polity is the rule of the majority, right of the minority, and the protection of due-process and redress for all concerned. They have majority rule down pretty well, it is the minority rights and due process stuff that is a bit hard at times.  To make broad policy decisions based upon who happens to show up at a certain meeting at a certain date is always problematic at best.  And if church X just happens to show up and church Y does not, does church Y forfeit its rights and options as a result, I think not. Does simple majority plus 1 mean all toe the line or bow to the new emperor?  I  think not. Again governance  is at times messy, at times maddening, at times exasperating, but it is the system.  Would you rather have Bishops?  Though some EPs think they are at times.

  Churches are leaving the PCUSA not because we have bad polity, though at times we do, not because they lose close votes, though the votes tend to be close. They are leaving because they feel they have no voice in the process or their voices are either ignored or drowned out by the oppressive majority.

   What if they called a Presbytery meeting and no body came or no one cares? One may laugh, but that reality is far closer than one may imagine.

Peter Gregory

There is a another take on this current matter.  If the BOP at the end of the day, roles out the same plans or proposals, then what was the point of the delay?  The key factors going forward will be:

    -What input, if any,  does the local church/clergy stake-holders have in the process in the eventual outcome
    -What will be in the process of implementation of the changes, whatever it turns out to be
    -What will be the opportunities for retort, response, or due-process once all is known.

   Assuming the medical plan will not run out of money tomorrow or next year,  the wise thing would be gradually phase in any structural changes over a 2, 3 year process to allow the system to adjust. But given their track history such wisdom and prudence is not to be expected.  I fully expect a roll out on a Friday night at 10PM, with little or no notice, take it or leave it.

   As a clergy with multiple options in health care,  if the final policy is nothing different from what already is know, I will leave it as well as the church. I see no reason why a 115 member church should pay into a system to  subsidize the clergy at the 800 member, multiple staff church 20 miles away, so they can enjoy the same benefits,  while my church in-cures a far steeper price to receive decreased levels of service. Does not work on any level.  I did not introduce class or economic warfare, the BOP did.

   As I remind all in the PCUSA it is a Constitution, not a suicide-pact. Nor are we chained to the ors of the sinking ship.

Peter Gregory

What a privilege it has been to know Glenn and Evelyn all of my adult life, from summers working in Montreat during college, to my time as a student at PSCE where I worked in the Craft Shop and on the PSCE service team under Glenn's guidance, to being their Christian Educator at Ginter Park Presbyterian Church, and being supported, embraced and nurtured by them at every turn.  What a remarkable couple!  Thank you both for your creative, positive, and unique gifts and lives! 

Ginny Sorsby Fergus