Christian Iosso

Louisville, Ky.

www.thepresbytery.org

Chicago, IL

I would like to thank Jack Haberer for his bold and brave editorial "Resurrection Generation." He has nailed it.

      In the '60s, we baby boomers took to the streets and boldly proclaimed that unless something was "relevant", it was not worthy of consideration. Anyone over 30 was stuck in the past and should not be listened to. No authority system or convention was worthy of respect unless it comported with the themes of the times: love should be free; the "people" should have power; the government was bad; church was a relic of past irrelevancies; etc etc. I recall many in my generation proudly declaring they would not "force" their children to go to church, but would let them make their own choices.

     It worked. We have reaped our own whirlwind. We are hoist on our own petard

Ed Koster
Stated Clerk, Detroit Presbytery

Lansdale, Pa.

Christopher, what language would you suggest that still draws from scripture but is less offensive than "exodus" and "exile"? 

James Leslie

As one myself, 56, I too tire of the Boomers as a collective group. We tend to be whinny, self-absorbed with our own importance, and delusional on what we can draw from the culture, state, and the world ,as opposed what we give back.

   In terms of the PCUSA the Boomers fall into the same trap as the Builder/WW2 generation parents. We tend to place far, far, far too much emphasis and importance on formal institutions. That if one is able to gain control or access to the board-rooms, offices and the leavers of power, then all will fall into place. It is much like those who place their faith in the U.N. or other like organizations to solve our collective ills.  In the PCUSA we fight out battles and culture/faith wars from the top-down, as if we could only pass Z or Y change in the Book of Order, or place X amount of racial,ethics, sexual minorities onto various committees we achieve peace and harmony in our lifetimes.  We forget change and transformation is personal, one at a time and true transformation, re-birth is from the bottom-up.  So we collectively have driven the church into the ground as the kids flee and we ask, "where is everybody?".  

  The health care puzzle falls into the same methodology. We want to pass down to the young, the less secure, the more challenged  our bills due to our own gluttony, excess, and poor decisions.  We want to balance our crises on the backs of less least able to do so. Shame, shame, shame. But we are Boomers, it is always somebody else's fault.

Peter Gregory

Jack, I must respectfully disagree with your assessment.  I have heard name calling on the floor of presbytery, in session meetings, etc.  It has not all come from Baby Boomers.  In fact, it has happened cross-generationally.  To put the sole blame on one generation is an injustice.  Yes it is true that Gen Xers and Millenials do not participate in the church.  But the studies I have read give different reasons: most were raised outside the church, most see the church as an ineffective institution, most in these two generations are not joiners (they do not join organizations and groups, which is having a major impact on civic clubs too).  I think it is important to put all things in the right perspective.

David McCann

I welcome the intention of ECO and Fellowship to be more gracious. Let me suggest a good first step toward that intention is to avoid the self-referential language of "exodus" and "exile." Such language assumes the PCUSA as oppressor and establishes ECO and Fellowship as oppressed victims or holy remnant. Only in an alternate universe where words do not have meaning could such metaphors be construed as "gracious."

Christopher Joiner

Thank you very much, Jack, for this challenging, appropriate, and motivating piece. I'm a boomer, but I'm claiming the Resurrection generation mindset. Grace and peace.

Paul Roberts

Thank you for reporting a necessary rebuke of a genuine infraction. I would, however, take exception with a single gratuitous word in this sentence: "The Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) currently does not allow its ministers to perform same-gender marriages...." The word is "currently."

“Currently” is unnecessary in the sentence and therefore superfluous. But worse, the word implies that the disallowal is something tenuous, temporary, or obviously going to change. Such an adverb casts doubt on the ban on same-sex marriage services. It's like assuming that we have it now, strangely, but it's likely to change. Would one ever write "U.S. law currently doesn't allow dismembering one's spouse"? Or think of what is implied if I state "I am currently married" versus just saying "I am married." The "currently" implies the status has recently changed or is likely to change soon.

Same-sex marriage has never been allowed for Christians. Presbyterian law reflects that conviction--not just "currently" but eternally!

Jim Berkley..

Contrary to Jon Heckman, I believe there's far too little news about the ECO
and the PCA and other Presbyterian denominations in the Outlook.  We need to
know about each other and learn to respect each other -- for Christ's sake,
and for the sake of the holy universal church.  Maybe we would even begin to
pray for each other.  What is the meaning of schism in a denomination where
ordained persons can believe anything they want and do most anything they
want?  I guess I don't see much hope for the continuation of the PCUSA.  I
do have great hope for a revival of Reformed Christianity in America that
will be evangelical and confessional with preaching and the sacraments front
and center.  Let's learn about each other.  What harm can it do?

Benjamin Sparks

I've met Stated Clerk Edward Koster several times during the ten years I served as a presbytery Stated Clerk, and always valued his comments. Ed Koster's commentary “The Decline of Discipline,” explains why I feel fragmented from the denomination and it's membership. He noted “... since members and governing bodies feel increasingly free to violate this covenant (The Constitution) we have with each other, there is little left to bind us together.” I occasionally meet with gatherings of colleagues, representing a range of theological & social views, and they tell stories of people in their presbyteries and councils they serve on doing, as Ed notes, “what is right in their own eyes.” There is no discipline in the church. When I was licensed and then ordained to the Ministry of Word and Sacrament I affirmed several vows. At lease one of them I can no longer affirm. My presbytery should have the guts to accuse me and remove me from jurisdiction for breaking my vows. If they don't, I should come forward (D-10.0102 c) in “self-accusation.”

John A. Gilmore, Milford

“Discipline?

                There is gold in the third section of the Book of Order, when we discover that our discipline is really industrial strength pastoral care. 

William E. Chapman

Retired teaching elder, Presbytery of the Palisades

Hillsdale, N.J.

The BOP changes is indeed a done deal.  Only two real questions remain in this saga. What if any,  do the 160 or so Presbytery EPs and Stated Clerks have to say on this matter, and what if any is there any retort, due-process or resistance to the proposed changes?

On the first matter there is only two responses. They either support the changes or they do not. To say nothing, to do nothing, speaks volumes as to their relative worth to the system at large. In such a time of this they are, and show themselves to as a group, empty suits or bureaucratic functionaries who sit behind a desk, occupy space and draw a paycheck.

 On the other matter of course there is no due-process or response possible in the PCUSA. It is like all Clergy/Teaching Elders and their churches have been transported to the old Soviet Gulag and we are told to be thankful for the cold gruel dumped on our plates and told resistance is futile. That we just have to bear it.

  There really is not greater commentary to the days events as the final authorization will happen a the end of a meeting at the 5 star Phiily Ritz-Carlton. I am sure Cozumel has been book up for the winter. I cannot make this stuff up.  

Peter Gregory

The matters of economic justice, call neutrality, risk pool adjustments, and other alternatives and mitigations has been discussed by me and others in other posts .I will not rehash those discussions.  At this point the BOP proposed actions, is a done deal. I have but two questions.

   Where are the 160 or so Presbytery EPs and Stated Clerks on this matter? Their collective silence speaks with a deafening noise. At this time of crises with Teacher Elders and churches that pay their bills, they can either be for these proposed changes, or not. But to say nothing, do nothing speaks to their collective lack of moral backbone and in essence paints them as empty suits or bureaucratic functionaries that really add no value to the organization.

  Further, what retort or due-process are we afforded in this matter?  The response is none of course. It is like Teaching Elders and churches in the PCUSA have been transported to the old Soviet Gulags where one should just be happy with the daily gruel dished out on our collective plates.  And keep our comments to ourselves, less the beatings commence.

  There is no better commentary to the process that the decision will be rendered post a meeting at the 5-star Philly Ritz-Carlton. I am sure Cozumel or Barbados has been booked for the winter.   You really make this stuff up.

Peter Gregory

No person in National Capital Presbytery filed a complaint against the Rev. Tara Spuhler-McCabe.  The complaint was filed by serveral persons who attended the GA in Pittsburgh.  Once the complaint was filed NCP acted according to The Rules of Discipline to form an Investigative Committee to determine if an offense had been committed and whether charges would be filed.  That happened. No one from the Committee on Ministry of NCP was involved with this.  You are correct in stating that the rebuke must be read to the presbytery whether Tara wanted that or not.  In fact, she did request that it be read to presbytery, irrespective of what the Rules of Discipline require. I chaired the IC and am confident that the process used to resolve this complaint was in perfect accord with the Rules of Discipline.

Doris Mabrey

My commentary on the matters of economic justice, fairness, call neutrality and proper risk distribution and mitigation have been made in previous posts. I will not rehash those discussions.  I just have two questions.

   Just where are the 160 or so, EPs and Stated Clerks on this matter? Their collective silence on this vital matter before the church is deafening. Given the gravity of pain, suffering, the impact on the churches who pay their salary leads one to conclude that in lack of evidence to the contrary, they are nothing more than bureaucratic functionaries, empty suits, who have reached their level of incompetence. Say something, either the collective leadership supports this, or it does not. But silence is simply collective failure in the face of challenge.

  Second is just where is the retort, just where is the due-process, where is the ability to resist the change ?  O right, it does not exist in the corrupt relationship between the PCUSA and BOP.  It is like Teaching elders have been transported to a Soviet Gulag for health care, where we just thank our masters for the gruel they slap on our plates.

  I can think of no better commentary to the banality and corruption of the system than the change will be announced at the conclusion of the meeting at the 5 star Philly Ritz-Carlton. I suppose Barbados or Cozumel was booked for the season. Shame, shame, shame.

pw gregory

The matter of economic justice, fairness, community distribution  of costs, the principle of call neutrality has already been address in my previous posts on the matter. At such a time like this  I have two questions. Where are the EPs and Stated Clerks of the 160 some Presbyteries on this matter?  Seems to me they would, or should have something to say on the matter. Their collective silence on this matter is deafening. And if they indeed have nothing to say on the matter, matters that effect their own local churches who pay their salaries. Then may I say they really serve no purpose,  and are nothing more than empty suits sitting behind a desk, collecting  pay-checks. Bureaucratic functionaries who have reached there collective level of incompetence. They richly deserve whatever pain this causes them in their jobs.

  Second question. If the BOP changes do indeed do come to pass, as they will given the corrupt nature of the PCUSA-BOP relationship, then what is the retort, where is the appeal or due-process?  O, right, there is none.  I can think no better commentary as to the times as the BOP will make the changes at a meeting at the 5-star Philly Ritz-Carlton. I assume Barbados is booked up for the season. Nothing speaks to the banality and moral bankruptcy of the entire system.

pw gregory