Comments for Achtemeier’s journey to accept homosexual marriage, ordination at http://www.pres-outlook.org , comment 1 to 10 out of 10 comments http://www.pres-outlook.org Wed, 08 Feb 2012 07:40:03 +0100 FeedCreator 1.7.3 http://www.pres-outlook.org/news-and-analysis3/1-news-a-analysis/9496-achtemeiers-journey-to-accept-homosexual-marriage-ordination-.html#comment-7473 Robert, thanks for the note ... sure, but we have to be careful to read the whole story. The Prodigal Son highlights a part of the "easy welcome" - while the boy rehearsed his elaborate apology, the Father dismissed it at the first words and shouted for the fatted calf and clean clothes. Jesus with Zacchaeus, the woman caught (John 8 may not be original, but I like the story), the Gentile woman and the crumbs, the bleeding woman, the woman who washed his feet with tears, the blind man - all of these were folks, who, in one way or the other, has been found wanting and excluded by the Jerusalem establishment. If Jesus has harsh words, it's for the "righteous" who are convinced of their own goodness, the scribes and Pharisees who fashioned themselves as "keepers of righteousness and morality," and the pretenders, who offered to follow, but only on their own terms. It was the "easy welcome" of "sinners and tax collectors" that infuriated the establishment who built their "business" on determining who was in and who was out, and made plenty of money (money changers) doing it - using that system to "cheat widows" and then "show off with long prayers." Paul's letters are similarly filled with grace - even as he addresses the most recalcitrant churches as "saints" ... culminating in his oratorio on Love. It helps to read Paul in the light of Jesus, and not the other way around. Paul was angered by two things: (Galatians) - those who compromised a Christian's freedom, and then (Corinthians) - those who postured themselves on a higher spiritual plane than others and then took "liberties" that lead to arrogance ("I know more than you do!") rather than the love the builds up (1 Cor. 8.1-2). And, btw, how do you determine that the PCUSA is dying? I know that's the mantra of the Lay Committee, and has been their battle cry for my entire ministry - 41 years - yet it strikes me as something verging on the kind of "judgment" Jesus expressly forbids - the issue here isn't ethical discernment, but a spiritual judgment that eagerly steps into the place of God, exercising, if you will, the fruit of the forbidden tree - knowing "good and evil," a knowledge which alone belongs to God. Folks have been calumniating about the church for centuries; such dire predictions are good pulpit fodder, but hardly accurate, and mostly misleading, as it plays into the hands of Satan and his tools of fear and anger. Besides, Jesus makes it clear - it's his task to build the church; it's our task to love, and forgive, one another. Great confusion results when we confuse the two. I wish you well in preaching. God's Peace and Joy. - Tom Eggebeen Wed, 26 Oct 2011 12:18:53 +0100 http://www.pres-outlook.org/news-and-analysis3/1-news-a-analysis/9496-achtemeiers-journey-to-accept-homosexual-marriage-ordination-.html#comment-7472 Tom, I am a little confused by the end of your comment. You say, "The powerful folks in Jerusalem sustained their power and prestige by exclusion; Jesus threatens their position with his easy welcome to all whom Jerusalem had turned away." I don't remember reading that "easy welcome" you are talking about. I remember it being hard and even exclusionary at times. Whether it was the calling of the disciples away from everything they knew and out of their comfort zone as a simple example, or the rich young ruler going away sad, or even any of the Sermon on the Mount. These are hard things, not easy welcomes. We look at the John 3 passage and talk about how simple the message of salvation is, but forget that it was simple, but not simplistic. It still included a choice - a hard road for the elect. And it seems that even the disciples, when they thought it too easy, Jesus called them "ye of little faith." Even the Epistles show those who can't handle the hard road and Paul has to "turn them over to the devil." Please help me understand this easy road that you are reading. But until then, I will continue working to bring about the change that puts our dying denomination back in line with God's logos - living and written. - Rev. Robert McClelland Tue, 25 Oct 2011 22:03:20 +0100 http://www.pres-outlook.org/news-and-analysis3/1-news-a-analysis/9496-achtemeiers-journey-to-accept-homosexual-marriage-ordination-.html#comment-7469 It's hard to change. Always has been, and will remain so until the final trump shall sound. Throughout the history of the church, dire consequences were offered up when change came a-calling. The Book of Acts and the struggle of the church to figure out what to do with "Gentiles," for heaven's sake. And in the Middle Ages, what about those monks who took seriously the call to poverty, a call that often embarrassed the church with its radical resistance to material comfort. At other points, when people of color were welcomed, goodness, what next? And then women. Scripture was cited and tradition lifted up to counter all of these changes, and then some. Prayers were offered, and hymns were sung as the "faithful" expected nothing but the worst from all of this. The demise of the church hasn't happened yet, in spite of so many predictions. Do you suppose the survival of the church has something to do with Christ as its head? As a rule of thumb, when Jesus dealt with opposition to his ministry, it was almost always at the point of inclusion and exclusion. The powerful folks in Jerusalem sustained their power and prestige by exclusion; Jesus threatens their position with his easy welcome to all whom Jerusalem had turned away. - Tom Eggebeen Sat, 22 Oct 2011 08:30:41 +0100 http://www.pres-outlook.org/news-and-analysis3/1-news-a-analysis/9496-achtemeiers-journey-to-accept-homosexual-marriage-ordination-.html#comment-7439 Endorsing homosexuality as Biblical is not only insane, it is an outright denial of Christ and apostasy from the covenant. There's not way around that fact. Rev. Eric Greene Centreville, MS - Eric Greene Sun, 09 Oct 2011 21:33:17 +0100 http://www.pres-outlook.org/news-and-analysis3/1-news-a-analysis/9496-achtemeiers-journey-to-accept-homosexual-marriage-ordination-.html#comment-5311 Mark Achtemeier is not the only evangelical Christian who has changed his understanding of homosexuality. I have been a Presbyterian minister since 1949. I am still a committed evangelical. I repeat the Apostles Creed with confidence. I embrace “the Word of God which is contained in the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments” as our guide in understanding “what man is to believe concerning God, and what duty God requires of man,” I reject the journalistic practice of identifying the religious right as evangelical. For most of my life I responded to homosexuality in terms of the Holiness Code in Leviticus and in the teaching of St. Paul in his letters to the Roman and Corinthian churches. I have read the Bible through many times. Yet, in 2007, I was startled by fresh insight from Matt. 19:11 where Jesus said, For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The reference to those who make themselves eunuchs obviously refers to those who have renounced marriage for priesthood, as in Roman Catholic clergy. Those who were made so by others included many servants in royal courts from Babylon to the Ottoman Empire. But what about those “who have been so from birth”? Did God create male and female persons who were sexually different from the majority of other men and women? Or are those who are different also a part of the family of God? In Leviticus, eunuchs and persons with damaged testicles were excluded from the temple. About the time I re-discovered Matt. 19:11, Elma (my wife) was reading Isaiah and found in Isaiah 56:4 the prophet’s statement: For thus says the Lord: To the eunuchs who keep my sabbaths, who choose the things that please me and hold fast my covenant, I will give, in my house and within my walls, a monument and a name better than sons or daughters; I will give them an everlasting name that shall not be cut off. We have all discovered among our friends or even in our families those whose sexual orientation is a mystery to us. Now we realize that homosexuality, and heterosexuality, are gifts of the Creator. The homosexual person and the emerging confident gay and lesbian communities with the human family are a gift of God and an opportunity for growing understanding by all of us. On the boards of our churches and in the ministry of the church, homosexual persons may have their unique gifts that can bless the church and humanity. To explore the meaning of this new insight and to discover new frontiers before us is a challenge to the whole church. To discover the moral meaning of out expanding understanding of humanity is a new adventure. Like all challenges, it can enrich our understanding and expand our horizons. The moral challenge continues. The commercialization of sexuality, the coercion or exploitation of sex, either homosexual or heterosexual, remain a sin and a shame. We must learn to transcend our confusion and resolve the conflicts that are a consequence of this new moral insight and social challenge. As each of us individually, and as the family of “the One God and father of us all,” we must learn to share our treasures. Then we will discover new opportunities in the Body of Christ for ministering in a world that needs healing and hope. The church may become more evangelical, more ecumenical, and more relevant in new ministries of praise and service. Edward D. Auchard H.R. Bryan, Ohio - Edward D. Auchard H.R. Sat, 06 Mar 2010 16:55:24 +0100 http://www.pres-outlook.org/news-and-analysis3/1-news-a-analysis/9496-achtemeiers-journey-to-accept-homosexual-marriage-ordination-.html#comment-5159 As a long-time subscriber to The Presbyterian Outlook, I commend you for your editorial on "So what about the Muslims?" I think you have joined the tradition of Aubrey Brown and George Laird Hunt in terms of giving leadership to the Presbyterian Church in how to deal with those who differ from us. My experience with numerous Muslims over 37 years of ministry, particularly in Jackson, Miss., leads me to agree with you completely. The Muslims I have known have been horrified at the terrorist activities. In Jackson, almost immediately after 9/11 the imam and the rabbi issued a joint statement condemning the attacks and calling for understanding between religious groups. Unfortunately, too many religious leaders have tried to exploit the differences for their own gain. In addition, I appreciate the coverage you have given to Mark Achtemeier's journey. I suspect many of us who have served congregations have had similar experiences and come to similar conclusions based on our study of Scripture and our experiences with gay Christians, not to mention the witness of remarkable elders and lay leaders. Many of us have not had the courage Mark has shown to make our views as public as he has. I have no desire to enter into a public debate on this issue with my brothers and sisters for I feel there are others far more qualified. I write merely to thank you for giving Mark's journey a good hearing. Keep up the good work. Jim White, H.R. Oak Island, N.C. - Jim White Tue, 26 Jan 2010 10:11:52 +0100 http://www.pres-outlook.org/news-and-analysis3/1-news-a-analysis/9496-achtemeiers-journey-to-accept-homosexual-marriage-ordination-.html#comment-5111 “When the truth of the Scripture is silenced in the pulpits and distorted in our seminaries…” Paul Muresan, associate pastor First Presbyterian Church Westminster, Calif. “Yet I continue to support the "Fidelity and Chastity" language because of the clear Biblical teaching that God intends sexual intimacy to be enjoyed only in the marriage of one man and one woman.” Dennis Canfield Western Springs, Ill Knowing is a wonderful thing. It can also come at a cost. Listening and learning can stop when one has certainty. At the very least it causes us to have an ear for agreement and deafness toward opposing views regardless of their source or power. Settled understanding allows one to move on to conquering the next uncertainty and turn it into truth. Clarity provides its own pulpit from which to dictate and proclaim “the truth”. What a blessing to be clear about sin and not sin. It is a gift. At least I would consider it so because it is not always so clear to me. Although scripture has and will continue to be our guide, the “truth” of scripture has been a moving target since the Bible was first proclaimed to be the inspired word of God. It is a dynamic document suited to be read by the learned and the not so learned each of whom garner, sometimes similar, sometimes different truths upon its reading. It is a place we turn to so that we can make sense of our experience. When we proclaim its “truth” we declare it to be the Bible’s truth and not our own. We are flawed, it is perfect. But what is the truth of scripture? Why do we do battle over it so? If the Bible speaks to what is “the truth”, why are there so many seminaries filled with people both learning and teaching who cannot seem to wrap their arms around exactly what “the truth” is about pieces of our shared lives? We have the primer but cannot seem to convert it to the lesson to be learned with agreement. Over the years the most contentious topics, slavery, women in ministry, divorce, the role of government in providing for the common good and others have brought forward a different “truth” than what had previously been the proclaimed “truth”. I cannot understand why this fact does not bring us to a point of greater humility about proclaiming with such certainty what we know to be true. As we become more awake as human beings, as our learning both about the outer and inner world of humanity expands how can we not expect what we “know to be true” to change? It seems to me that truth begins in the hearts of men and women. In order to recognize it we must be predisposed to it. Our judgment about what is true will reflect what we bring to it as our foundation for discernment. As the parent of a gay son and as the President of PFLAG (Parents, Families and Friends of Lesbians and Gays) Pittsburgh I fall victim to the same disheartening admonishment with which I began my comments here. I am certain. It comes with a cost. I am certain that God is big enough to sort this whole (gay) thing out for the Church and while He is doing so we need to be kind and open to His people, all of His people. We need to be generous because we have been given more than we deserve. By extension, how can we do less? To say that someone who is gay and happens to be legally married or in a committed relationship (in states where marriage isn’t possible) is, a priori, not capable of being a good example of Christian leadership is outside of my experience. It is also outside of what I have come to know from scripture. To use Mark Achtemeier’s own words, “There is a vast difference between vetoing what the Bible says on the basis of experience, and looking for understandings of the Bible that make powerful sense of our experience.” Achtemeier’s change of view, coming to an acceptance of the notion of gay marriage and ordination, speaks to God sorting this whole thing out. It speaks to what happens when one truly is open to seeing and hearing his/her fellow human beings. If it happens not to reflect your world view and certainty about scripture I’m afraid I don’t know what to do about that except pray and continue to follow the Spirit’s lead in my own life. This brings me to the cost of my certainty. I am frustrated and disappointed in my Church for being so slow to move with definitive guidance. It leads me to question my place in the Church. Do I belong here? If I don’t, who else doesn’t? There is little doubt in my mind, although maybe not in the minds of many who read this letter, that the Church, right now, is on the wrong side of history. In decades to come we will look back upon this argument and wonder how we could have treated people as we now do. It will be a settled matter that gay and lesbian people living out their sexual self expression as homosexuals of course makes sense and is how God intended them to live. Good for you Mark Achtemeier. Mike Fazzini Elder, Fox Chapel Presbyterian Church Pittsburgh, PA - Mike Fazzini Sat, 19 Dec 2009 10:40:48 +0100 http://www.pres-outlook.org/news-and-analysis3/1-news-a-analysis/9496-achtemeiers-journey-to-accept-homosexual-marriage-ordination-.html#comment-5102 I am very sad to read about “the journey “ of Mark Achtemeier. When the truth of the Scripture is silenced in the pulpits and distorted in our seminaries, we can only expect the judgment to fall on our disobedience. The article defines Mr. Achtemeier as an evangelical professor. Who can define evangelical any longer? Can anyone help me understand the definition? We got the Scripture interpreted to say what we want to hear and the Holy Spirit to guide us where we want to go. Well there is hope. This shall end and when it will, we will be surprised! Paul Muresan, associate pastor First Presbyterian Church Westminster, Calif. - RE: Achtemeier’s journey (pub. Dec. 14/21, 2009) Tue, 15 Dec 2009 07:49:36 +0100 http://www.pres-outlook.org/news-and-analysis3/1-news-a-analysis/9496-achtemeiers-journey-to-accept-homosexual-marriage-ordination-.html#comment-5099 Achtemeier has departed the Coalition camp for the Covenant Network, greatly improving both groups by his move. RE: “if the Bible’s teaching does not help us make powerful sense of life and experience, if Biblical faithfulness is not life-giving, that is a sure sign we have not understood our Scripture properly.” Either that or we just prefer our own good over the good God intends for us. Whatever happened to obedience? - Noel Anderson Mon, 14 Dec 2009 11:15:49 +0100 http://www.pres-outlook.org/news-and-analysis3/1-news-a-analysis/9496-achtemeiers-journey-to-accept-homosexual-marriage-ordination-.html#comment-5098 Re: Achtemeier and homosexual marriage/ordination (pub. Dec. 14/21, 2009) While Mark Achtemeier may be an "unlikely candidate for radical change," I, as a long-time member of the Fourth Presbyterian Church of Chicago, am an unlikely candidate to avoid the same radical change. These past twenty years, in the pews and among the members of Fourth Church, I have had ample exposure to every argument in favor of the goal of removing the Fidelity and Chastity language of our Book of Order. Yet I continue to support the "Fidelity and Chastity" language because of the clear Biblical teaching that God intends sexual intimacy to be enjoyed only in the marriage of one man and one woman. I am grateful to Fourth Church leadership and members for being among the influences that make me much more empathetic than I may previously have been to the plight of those who are barred from leadership positions because they are active in sexual relationships outside of marriage. Like (the) Rev. Achtemeier, I feel that I have grown in my understanding of this issue. I may previously have believed that God punishes us for violating his teachings; now, I believe that He weeps for us, because He knows that straying from His teachings inevitably leads us only to unhappiness and suffering. Imagine a society where we adhered completely to the teaching against adultery; there would be no suffering from sexually transmitted diseases, no children born out of wedlock to mothers who are themselves still children, and stronger marriages, families and communities. We should strive to move closer to this unachievable ideal, not farther away from it. Only by upholding the authority and teachings of Scripture can our church help our society to move in the right direction. Dennis Canfield Western Springs, Ill. - Dennis Canfield Mon, 14 Dec 2009 08:49:47 +0100