Comments for Presbytery votes to permit Larges ordination; stay of enforcement sought at http://www.pres-outlook.org , comment 1 to 21 out of 20 comments http://www.pres-outlook.org Wed, 08 Feb 2012 07:45:28 +0100 FeedCreator 1.7.3 http://www.pres-outlook.org/news-and-analysis3/1-news-a-analysis/9395-presbytery-votes-to-permit-larges-ordination-stay-of-enforcement-sought.html#comment-5200 to P.W. Gregory I'm not sure what you're trying to argue. It is possible to be non-parish clergy. This is not something specialy imagined simply for Lisa--the PC(USA) has multiple validated ministries. - Noell Rathbun Fri, 19 Feb 2010 12:37:50 +0100 http://www.pres-outlook.org/news-and-analysis3/1-news-a-analysis/9395-presbytery-votes-to-permit-larges-ordination-stay-of-enforcement-sought.html#comment-5061 "The current discrimination against LGBT people is just the 21st century equivalent of the Church vs Galileo. Way back in 1975 the American Psychological Association, after considering the scientific evidence, declared that human beings cannot choose their sexual orientation." - Ken Meyers The Sexual Orientation issue is just that - it has no bearing on the Gospel message of the Old and New Testaments. The Sexual Orientation issue is about getting the permission of heterosexuals for homosexuals to enjoy sex with their own kind in the privacy of their bedrooms. If the Sexual Orientation people think they can 'wear down the judge' you didn't read the passage very well. He neither feared man nor God. Those who speak against using scruples to SNAKE around the chastity in singleness issue are not arguing with a judge who doesn't care about your opinion of him - They are arguing with God himself. Church leadership has quoted the Bible until they are blue in the face. It is GOD's word that is judging not man. If Sexual Orientation people are incapable of seeing the arguement in this light, why would they think current church leadership would allow anyone to enter into ministry with the inability to understand God's word? The Sexual Orientation issue is not with Presbyterian Church Polity but WITH GOD. If you do not understand or refuse to see, what do you think GOD will do with the issue when you die? He who has ears will hear, he who has eyes will see. - lexmel Wed, 25 Nov 2009 08:20:06 +0100 http://www.pres-outlook.org/news-and-analysis3/1-news-a-analysis/9395-presbytery-votes-to-permit-larges-ordination-stay-of-enforcement-sought.html#comment-5059 Lisa Larges' "scruple" statement is truly eloquent. Where is the compassion that the Church should be showing to all people? If there is no room for compassion then how about turning to scientific opinion? The current discrimination against LGBT people is just the 21st century equivalent of the Church vs Galileo. Way back in 1975 the American Psychological Association, after considering the scientific evidence, declared that human beings cannot choose their sexual orientation. Again in 1997 the APA reaffirmed that position and added that attempting to change a person's orientation could be very harmful. Are there still people out there who believe the earth is the center of the universe and the stars and galaxies were created for our entertainment? - Ken Meyers Tue, 24 Nov 2009 21:30:22 +0100 http://www.pres-outlook.org/news-and-analysis3/1-news-a-analysis/9395-presbytery-votes-to-permit-larges-ordination-stay-of-enforcement-sought.html#comment-5025 Thank you for your reporting on Ms. Larges' ordination process. I was particularly impressed by her statement of departure that you linked in the article. Upon reading initial reports one would be led to conclude the scruple is just about "fidelity and chastity" rather than the entirety of G-6.0601b as is actually noted by Ms. Larges. Being that I'm gay I've always taken an interest in G.0601b especially since I also happen to be an ordained deacon in the PC (USA). In studying the BoO, the Confessions, and the Bible, I discovered the contradictions between these documents and the opinions of various Presbyterians on how the contradictions should be resolved. I guess one might say contradictions are not good and certainly they can make life a little more difficult. But it seems to me Christianity is full of contradictions ranging from the virign birth to the resurrection of Jesus. Faith is a contradiction to human existence, is it not? Back to the debate the simple truth is that the PC (USA) has had the opportunity for several years to make it quite explicit in the BoO that self-affirming homosexuals (or whatever term one chooses) are forbidden to be ordained. Maybe the AI of 1978 helped some with that, but now it is no longer relevant per the last GA and it was never part of the Constitution even though some liked to think so. So all we have now is G-6.0106b. The word homosexual does not even exist in the BoO. Am I the only one that finds that so strange since this is something that continues to be debated in our denomination? The simple truth is most people in the PC (USA) don't want to deal with this issue and keep hoping it goes away. They are in denial. Another fact is that deacons and elders as well as myself who happen to be LGBT are ordained throughout the PC (USA) without us having to declare a scruple. The focus in the PC (USA) seems to be on the Ministers implying that G-6.0106b is more important to enforce for certain officers rather than others. Another contradiction. Ms. Larges has done all of us in the PC (USA) a great favor in her scruple by not only bringing the issue of LGBT ordination to the forefront, but also the question of how Christ, the BoO, the Confessions, and the Bible all relate in our faith. And those who likewise iniated a stay to the action of the presbytery in approval of ordaining Ms. Larges may have also done a favor in asking the higher bodies bring clarification on the matter of the scruple. Though I'm not sure if that is really their intention. I expect they are more concerned with the LGBT issue or just sex rather than the question of how we resolve the mix of the BoO, the Confessions, and the Bible. Quite honestly I don't expect any clear resolution on the matter of how the scruple should be resolved since it is much more than a question of sexual relations between adults. It is actually a question of much more relevance in how we as Presbyterians address contradictions. Maybe I and others (liberal, middle, and conservative) will be pleasantly surprised. Or maybe the next GA will fix this? Earl Apel Cincinnati, Ohio - Earl Apel Sat, 14 Nov 2009 17:46:23 +0100 http://www.pres-outlook.org/news-and-analysis3/1-news-a-analysis/9395-presbytery-votes-to-permit-larges-ordination-stay-of-enforcement-sought.html#comment-5019 I thank the members of the Presbytery for their just vote. As someone new to the Presbyterian faith, the lack of support for the gay and lesbian community has been a significant stumbling block to my commitment the church. I find it unconscionable that we would exclude gay and lesbian individuals from ordination. So many young families associate this type of discrimination with our faith, and it stops them from attending and engaging in the church. Thank you to those who voted in support for taking us closer to a faith community we can be proud of; your children (and mine) will thank you. - Carrie McKiernan Thu, 12 Nov 2009 10:58:01 +0100 http://www.pres-outlook.org/news-and-analysis3/1-news-a-analysis/9395-presbytery-votes-to-permit-larges-ordination-stay-of-enforcement-sought.html#comment-5017 Much like a Greek or Shakespearean drama, the ordination follies of the PCUSA is a play with many moving parts, characters, and moments of high drama, with the end of the play rarely satisfying all who bought the tickets. What I find interesting to say the least is how the Presbytery choose to "validate" a ministry that has obvious baggage, both ideological and political, and call it a work worthy of ordination. Gender, sexual orientation of the person aside. It is much like me getting a job at "Uncle Joe's Crab-House", or maybe the local Bucks County Democratic Committee and in the course of my work I happen to pray, hold hands, maybe even do a Bible study or two with staff and co-workers. Or I even carry a sign or two at a local election and hand out stuff. Is my work now worthy of "validation" or now a work recognized as requiring the 124 hours of undergraduate work and a M. Div. to do? Can I compel the Presbytery to give me a hearing based upon where I feel God has placed me? As with everything else in our unhappy little club few things get settled by the courts or bodies charged to oversee the process or render guidance. I might as well read "Measure for Measure", act 2, sceen 5 for clarity in the matter. - P.W. Gregory Thu, 12 Nov 2009 10:44:57 +0100 http://www.pres-outlook.org/news-and-analysis3/1-news-a-analysis/9395-presbytery-votes-to-permit-larges-ordination-stay-of-enforcement-sought.html#comment-5016 Will they also vote to allow unmarried heterosexuals in sexual relationships to become ordained? This seems like a given with the allowance of a practicing homosexual to be ordained. People are greatly mistaken about what God values in His followers, it is not a great speaker, or one that can move the emotions of large crowds, those that serve in mega churches are no more valuable to God than a simple person who plants the seed of salvation in another person through his gentle words. "Lisa's incomparable gospel preaching and watching her sensitive leading of groups of diverse Presbyterians in spite of her visual disability" and similar praises of Ms. Larges are not a valid point in supporting her ordination. Christ sacrificed his life for us and He asks for sacrifices in our lives as well. The Lord values the poor in spirit, the meek, those who hunger for rightousness, those who are ready to lose their pride at the drop of the hat. If God came down and told me that I'm not allowed to wear yellow, I should be ready to discard all my yellow clothing to follow Him, I understand that living a chaste life as a homosexual is a much bigger sacrafice then changing your wardrobe, but the point is we are to follow God, not the church, not man, not our own interpretation of His word, it is clearly spelled out that God does not approve of a homosexual lifestyle and if Ms. Larges is eager to serve Him at the pulpit, she should also sacrafice her lifestyle to abide by His word. Read Romans 1:18-26 18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. 21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. 24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen. 26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. - Helen Aslanian Thu, 12 Nov 2009 10:03:28 +0100 http://www.pres-outlook.org/news-and-analysis3/1-news-a-analysis/9395-presbytery-votes-to-permit-larges-ordination-stay-of-enforcement-sought.html#comment-5015 Due to our GAPJC ducking the core issues that were readily present before them with this case just a short time ago, we can now all enjoy another 12 - 18 months of this case reworking its way back through our church court system with the total costs of another $200,000 (or more) plus the additional loses in membership and other giving as fallout. Thanks GAPJC members (for nothing). - Matt Ferguson Thu, 12 Nov 2009 09:55:19 +0100 http://www.pres-outlook.org/news-and-analysis3/1-news-a-analysis/9395-presbytery-votes-to-permit-larges-ordination-stay-of-enforcement-sought.html#comment-5014 I have issues with "scruple" allowed. First, historically, scrupling was for the confession and the confession alone. Being allowed to scruple the Book of Order on ordination standards is very troubling. If this is allowed to pass, then the PC(USA) no longer has any ordination standards for if you allow one ordination standard to be scrupled then all may be scrupled. - Dwain De Pew Thu, 12 Nov 2009 07:54:26 +0100 http://www.pres-outlook.org/news-and-analysis3/1-news-a-analysis/9395-presbytery-votes-to-permit-larges-ordination-stay-of-enforcement-sought.html#comment-5013 Having heard Lisa's incomparable gospel preaching and watching her sensitive leading of groups of diverse Presbyterians in spite of her visual disability. it's clear that God's Spirit has profoundly blessed her ministry. It's long past time for her ordination. - Thomas Niccolls Thu, 12 Nov 2009 07:19:55 +0100 http://www.pres-outlook.org/news-and-analysis3/1-news-a-analysis/9395-presbytery-votes-to-permit-larges-ordination-stay-of-enforcement-sought.html#comment-5011 Yes, Mr. Tolar, it is time to move on. Perhaps you will have more influence with people like Ms. Naegeli who continue to halt the ordination of candidates at every turn and keep our denomination from doing the mission we are called to do. Please do tell Ms. Naegeli and others it is time to move on. - jshuck Thu, 12 Nov 2009 05:27:16 +0100 http://www.pres-outlook.org/news-and-analysis3/1-news-a-analysis/9395-presbytery-votes-to-permit-larges-ordination-stay-of-enforcement-sought.html#comment-5010 This is why my spiritual conscience has lead me away from the Protestant faith. I have joined the Catholic Church where things remain constant and follow an order of strict belief in what God desires. Granted. many people are only going through the motions but I was never that type of Chrisitan. You guys have lost a "good egg" humbled by God's mercy and grace. Thank you for listening. - Carol Cassell Thu, 12 Nov 2009 04:02:38 +0100 http://www.pres-outlook.org/news-and-analysis3/1-news-a-analysis/9395-presbytery-votes-to-permit-larges-ordination-stay-of-enforcement-sought.html#comment-5009 We can (should?) all take our lesson(s) from watching the Episcopalian Church. They have effectively opened ordination to all. As a result they have paid the price at home and from around the world. What joy has come their way as a result? (Fractures, splintering, congregations leaving, etc.) We Presbyterians have an opportunity to end this 40 year argument. Let's end it once and for all. We should be investing our time and energy in things that will make a difference in a hurting world. Ordaining a hand full of people declaring a "scruple" is not worth it. It's time! Let move on! - Robert Tolar, Jr. Thu, 12 Nov 2009 03:15:03 +0100 http://www.pres-outlook.org/news-and-analysis3/1-news-a-analysis/9395-presbytery-votes-to-permit-larges-ordination-stay-of-enforcement-sought.html#comment-5008 Shame on those who voted for such a sin! I mourn with those who mourn and pray for those who can rejoice over such a shame! I pastor in Romania and pray this will not happen here. Revelation 22:11  He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. Amin! - Sandu Frentiu Thu, 12 Nov 2009 00:55:28 +0100 http://www.pres-outlook.org/news-and-analysis3/1-news-a-analysis/9395-presbytery-votes-to-permit-larges-ordination-stay-of-enforcement-sought.html#comment-5007 This continual leaning towards the godless left is why I am proudly no longer a member of the PCUSA! When will we stand and show some backbone in this country? The advent of the "politically correct" attitude over the last two generations has led us to where we are today, both politically and spiritually. I PRAY! - Jeff Sis Wed, 11 Nov 2009 23:00:10 +0100 http://www.pres-outlook.org/news-and-analysis3/1-news-a-analysis/9395-presbytery-votes-to-permit-larges-ordination-stay-of-enforcement-sought.html#comment-5006 This is not historic at all! Has everyone forgotten Stewart v. Mission Presbytery of a few years ago?? Does NO ONE do their homework anymore?? I feel like a new Battlestar Galactica episode intro..."all this happened before and all this will happen again..." In the case I mention, Mission Presbytery was told that ordination (or candidacy for ordination in that case) does not mean that we can overlook provisions in the constitution. Our collective memory is about as short-lived as the shelf life of a head of lettuce. Sad. - Toby Brown Wed, 11 Nov 2009 18:32:54 +0100 http://www.pres-outlook.org/news-and-analysis3/1-news-a-analysis/9395-presbytery-votes-to-permit-larges-ordination-stay-of-enforcement-sought.html#comment-5004 An ordained minister of the Word is a role model to those in the congregation and in the world. His/her character must exemplify Biblical values. The Word of God is very clear about this subject, both in the Old and New Testaments. - Susan Constance Wed, 11 Nov 2009 17:32:39 +0100 http://www.pres-outlook.org/news-and-analysis3/1-news-a-analysis/9395-presbytery-votes-to-permit-larges-ordination-stay-of-enforcement-sought.html#comment-5001 I've been wondering if the current denomination stance not to ordain same-sex folks in a covenantal relationship is challenging the sovereignity of God. Can God give GLBT folks gifts of ministry? If we say no, then we're asserting limits on God's powers. - Rick Elliott Wed, 11 Nov 2009 17:04:22 +0100 http://www.pres-outlook.org/news-and-analysis3/1-news-a-analysis/9395-presbytery-votes-to-permit-larges-ordination-stay-of-enforcement-sought.html#comment-5000 A good day. The busybodies will not spoil the joy. Their last act of desperation will prove to be futile. Lisa is paving the way for ordination justice in the PCUSA. It will come soon. - jshuck Wed, 11 Nov 2009 16:14:13 +0100 http://www.pres-outlook.org/news-and-analysis3/1-news-a-analysis/9395-presbytery-votes-to-permit-larges-ordination-stay-of-enforcement-sought.html#comment-4999 I was one of those who tweeted last night (for the first time using hashtags) and it was an amazing experience. What a prayer presence there was last night on Twitter. It is exciting how technology brought us together across the country last night to pray for Lisa (I was one of those for her ordination.) - Janet L. Bohren Wed, 11 Nov 2009 14:17:12 +0100